Enemy of the State

...it was on a Saturday afternoon, and I was folding the washing, and thinking "where could he go? What could be a bail address that no judge could argue with?" You know, somewhere you could feel safe about sending this 'muslim terrorist'. And I thought to myself, "some priests — what about priests?"

– Lawyer Deborah Manning on Auckland's St Benedict's Church becoming Ahmed Zaoui's bail address, in the fifth video episode

I was very happy that I found myself in a Western country, who can save the life of people — that's the first thing. The second thing, when I met a policeman and I asked him where and how can I ask for refugee status?, said to me 'welcome!' with a large smile.

– Ahmed Zaoui on arriving in New Zealand, in the first audio episode

Even after all this time, the Zaoui case still divides New Zealand. There are those who believe that the Algerian asylum seeker is a terrorist, who tricked his way into our peaceful country; I have friends who say that. That's certainly what Winston Peters said at the time.

– Narrator John Keir, at the start of the third audio episode

I remember Keith Locke came to see me, early in the case. He had at that time been a member of the Green Party and Parliament, and he had raised questions when Zaoui was in solitary confinement. I always remember that conversation with him, because he wanted to explain to me the power of the security services over politicians. And essentially that security services charm, frighten politicians. And politicians essentially won't go against the security services.

– Lawyer Deborah Manning on meeting politician Keith Locke, in the third audio episode

They put me in a cold place in the airport with the police. They make the handcuffs on my hand. There was no translator who can explain to me what will be happening. And then I start to get scared.

– Ahmed Zaoui on what happened shortly after arriving in New Zealand, in the first audio episode

Lawyers have to store files for a minimum of seven years. It's obviously more than seven years but I've kept the Zaoui case. Because I just think it's so important to keep it as one body of work. I just can't let it go, actually.

– Lawyer Deborah Manning, at the start of the first video episode

Intelligence officers are people who are trained to smell flowers, and then go looking for the coffin or the funeral. They're professional pessimists or cynics, if you like. They're looking for trouble...

– Ex Intelligence Officer Rhys Ball quotes a CIA officer talking about the role of security officers, in the first audio episode

I said to him [the prison guard] "I'm just annoyed, I can't do nothing. I don't have books, I can't write." Do you know what his reply...he shocked me with his reply. He said to me "Hang yourself."

– Ahmed Zaoui on the hostility of prison guards shortly after his arrival in New Zealand, in the second audio episode

The Zaoui case was one of those cases that was a lightening rod case. And it did polarise people. I would hear all the time about families falling out over the dinner table about it; friendships falling out, people losing jobs, or other people who lost jobs because of their association with Zaoui. People felt very strongly about it.

– Lawyer Deborah Manning on conflcting opinions over the Ahmed Zaoui case, in the third audio episode

The concerns about surveillance reached the point where we could no longer have meetings in our offices, and we could no longer talk about the case on the phone. We ended up going up to the domain sometimes, having our meetings and walking in the park. It was the only place, in the fresh open air, where we felt we could talk about the case, and put aside those concerns about whether we were being monitored.

– Lawyer Richard McLeod on his suspicions that he was being bugged throughout the Zaoui case, early in video episode four

I, for one, have no issue with legislation designed to keep the rest of us safe. Everything though, comes down to this: the rights of the state, versus the rights of the individual. There have to be checks and balances.

– Narrator John Keir, near the start of the fourth audio episode

So much of it was secret: they wouldn't say what the actual concerns were, and so my attitude was rather than try and guess what the holes were, and plug them up in an adversarial way, I'll just tell the whole story...

– Lawyer Deborah Manning on the ambiguity surrounding the reasons for the arrest of Ahmed Zaoui, in the first audio episode

I think that one person can make a difference, when the state is involved. However the state is very powerful. It's relentless, it's brutal, and it's ruthless. I think people who do have their battles against the state, they sacrifice a lot and they lose a lot.

– Lawyer Deborah Manning, at the start of the second audio episode

I said to him "I am F.I.S." When I said F.I.S, he thought that I said to him "yes."

– Ahmed Zaoui recounts an airport customs officer thinking that he'd admitted to being a member of the G.I.A. [Algeria's Armed Islamic Group], in the second audio episode

Intelligence agencies are not police agencies okay. They deliberately operate in a grey zone. And they have certain understandings, especially amongst themselves, about what is permissible and what is not. But, by definition, what they do is outside of the law.

– Intelligence expert Paul Buchanan, in the fourth audio episode

In my experience, the genuine refugee is most grateful for protection. But the genuine refugee would rather be at home. And people have this terrible attitude towards refugees; they think they're all bludgers and they want our fabulous little country — no, I think in my experience, they want protection.

– Refugee Appeals Authority Chair Ema Aitkin, early in the tenth video episode

The security risk certificate was there to basically hold a person, perhaps indefinitely, until such time as the person's future was determined ... we found that the security risk certificate was almost an ultimately new way of preventing information to be put before the accused, the accused's lawyers, the courts themselves, the media, the public ... [like] it was this big cloak that went over all of the information that was pertinent to the Ahmed Zaoui case.

– Journalist Selwyn Manning on the security risk certificate system, at the start of the fourth audio episode

Actually the more time that goes on, the more I realise, actually, it was quite extraordinary what we achieved....

– Lawyer Deborah Manning reminisces on defending Ahmed Zaoui, early in the tenth video episode

I learn from New Zealand ... to have lovely person surround you — your friends, family — that's the most important for me, and the most important thing I learn from New Zealand.

– Ahmed Zaoui, late in the tenth video episode

You know, Ahmed Zaoui really is an extraordinary person. He was a genuine refugee; he was only here because he needed our protection. And he was treated very cruelly by our authorities, absolutely no question. But he would not say that to you. He would just remember the generosity, and the friendships and the goodness that he received here in New Zealand — because that's the type of person he is.

– Lawyer Deborah Manning on Ahmed Zaoui, in the tenth video episode

Seeing that [Ahmed Zaoui's lawyers] Deborah Manning and Richard McLeod and Rodney Harrison were posing a really big threat to their version of events, I have absolutely no doubts they would have bugged them.

– Intelligence expert Paul Buchanan on whether the SIS bugged Ahmed Zaoui's lawyers, in the fourth audio episode

I personally think that the [NZ] Refugee Status Appeals Authority was cavalier, in dismissing...without taking evidence from either the French or Belgian legal systems — why they reached the decisions that they did.

– Prime Minister Helen Clark during the Ahmed Zaoui case, in the third video episode